LOTRO: OD is using HiPS an exploit?

Two opinions (neither of them mine) from the main forums:

Re: Ost Dunhoth Strategy and Videos (Spoilers)

HiPS, an exploit?

Ok, now that we don't have to plague the other thread with this whole discussion. I hope that it's ok that this can be brought out in the open, if not forum mods feel free to edit my post, but I would like people to understand what the issue is so it's not just a bunch of people "complaining" as it may look to some. This really has nothing to do with kin vs kin or even boss kills, its actually a really broken skill that can be used throughout the game not just in OD. I've talked with a couple members from Resistance and funny enough, it's much less dramatic than the awesome forum trolling that we all got pulled into. They're open about the strat and we basically agree to disagree on whether or not this is an exploit, however at the end of our conversations the general agreement was that this is a pretty broken skill and should be fixed.

The issue is, if you watch (and listen) in the Durin's Bane video, once he starts doing face your fears, the burglars start using Hips as soon as the words come up in the chat log for the face your fears prompt (the voice prompt is 1 go, 2 go, 3 go, etc). The burglar does not have agro or anything, simply uses hips. This then, appears to somehow interrupt the script and the attack NEVER goes off (it is not absorbed, the dnftf is used for the other fire attacks in this video). It is my understanding that this can be used throughout the game, in the Ivar fight, to stop attacks and heals, in the mammoth fight to stop inductions. It can be used in 3 mans, 6mans, etc. Basically anywhere where you want to interrupt a script whether or not it is supposed to be interrupted. Furthermore, it is my understanding that minstrel feign death can serve a similar function.

Why this is not working as intended in my opinion? Burglar hips is a single target skill meant to put a burglar back in stealth and meant to drop any agro off mobs that the burg may have. If a mob that is agro'd on the burg is in the middle of an induction then that attack will be interrupted and the mob will reset. However, in these situations the burg does not have agro of the mob, so why on earth would it be ok for a skill that is meant only for the burglar to break a script that negates damage for the whole group. I would understand if it interrupted a skill if a burglar used hips while a mob was agro'd on it, but this is not the case. Furthermore, I would even understand if a burg that used hips would not take the damage himself, but the rest of the group would.

I know there was always a grey area with burgs and hips, especially hips pulls in BG. I never did it because it's completely doable and often more reliable to do it the intended way, but in this case I think we're far beyond grey area when raid wide effects are being completely negated.


playing with semantics here. it's clearly an exploit. it's more clearly an exploit than many things which have been outright called exploits by the time devs caught up with them (e.g. the original grand stairs jumping thing).

bad programming is the devs' fault; taking advantage of bad programming is players' fault -- simple as that. if you are taking advantage of bad programming that you have yourself admitted shouldn't work the way it does, that's essentially the textbook definition of exploiting a fight.

it is an exploit because it, contrary to every single dev intention for that fight, eliminates the defining aspect of durin's bane challenge mode. it eliminates the special attack that is the whole point of the the end of that fight. it doesn't mitigate it; it eliminates it in a way contrary to every intention of the raid's designer. period, full stop.

people who are using this approach aren't really doing DB challenge mode because they inappropriately eliminate the element that DEFINES the challenge mode. they're doing a tame alternate universe version of the fight and getting credit for the actual thing.

this is an exploit that simply slipped through the cracks because of how turbine's programming silos works -- the person who is designing class skills is working totally separate from the person designing boss fights. as a result, they can't figure out the extent of the exploit till after the fight is already out and players figure things out that a better integrated team would've figured out beforehand.

as i've said elsewhere, ultimately this is an issue of personal and group integrity. if you are using mechanics that YOU YOURSELF HAVE ADMITTED ARE BUGGED, you are exploiting. if ultimately you care more about bragging about firsts and loot, you would consider using exploits to get things done. if you actually wanted to play the game for its own sake, to push yourself by actually doing the fights as intended rather than looking for a backdoor to eliminate the challenge, you wouldn't be all that tempted to do so.

in the final reckoning, it's a question of character and of why people choose to play the game.


In the OP of this thread there were videos referenced in the first opinion so here are the links:


Gortheron (Part1) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RuqJP6RUXE

Gortheron (Part2) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNEMrwEBm5o

Ivar - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmMWFDfxfh4&feature=related

Poison - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR6njupwmm4&feature=related

Fear - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5u_w_Uoq0&feature=related (Interrupting Face your Fears)

Fear alt. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozGt7q2sbU4 (Using DnFtF or just healing Face your Fears)

Wound - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJPSrpQuvX4&feature=related

Disease - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWLraJYfxy8&feature=related

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